S3 Ep025 Empathy, Intersectionality, and Public Space:with Han Malyn, Pt1
Kinderpublic welcomes Han Malyn (pronouns they/them) to discuss intersectionality and empathy in the design and operation of public space. Han is an institutional fundraiser and has worked in the nonprofit sector for over 15 years, including major organizations working in anti-poverty, human rights, LGBTQI+ community, and arts education. We reflect on:
The current state of safety for women and gender minorities in public space, and how that negatively impacts accessibility;
How restrictions on breastfeeding in public space and the safety of pregnant people share a relationship with protecting the safety of the LGBTQI+ community;
Why Han moved from work in the art and art education sector to human rights;
Why we should prioritize tolerance and “do no harm” over knowing and categorizing.
Bio:
Han (they/them) has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for 15+ years across a broad range of sectors, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty. They are based in the greater DC area.
“This is an important thing to talk about because, you know, there are many ways that accessibility and safe spaces present, and it really does vary based on your context, what you can even like, hope for. And I think that it's extra important for places, people in places that are progressive to like double down on making sure that they're accessible and safe for people, when there's so many places that we're not.”
-Han Malyn
Transcript
Season 3, Episode 25 (Part 1 of 4) Empathy, Intersectionality, and Public Space with Han Malyn
Han Malyn (they/them):
This is an important thing to talk about because, you know, there are many ways that accessibility and safe spaces present, and it really does vary based on your context, what you can even like, hope for. And I think that it's extra important for places, people in places that are progressive to like double down on making sure that they're accessible and safe for people, when there's so many places that we're not.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle (she/her):
Welcome to Towards a Kinder Public, a podcast dedicated to designing kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
We are so fortunate to share this discussion with Han Malyn, who has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for over 15 years, across a broad range of areas, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty. You’ll also hear some references to the podcast that Han did with their spouse called Han and Matt Know It All, which reviewed and expanded on the feedback given in advice columns. Han is now based in the greater DC area.
Han uses the pronouns they/them. I use the pronouns she/her.
We will discuss the design of better public space from the perspective of queer spaces, and intersectionality, meaning, using empathy as a design principle, and seeking to meet actual needs based on how we really live our lives, rather than allowing architecture to enforce rigid categorizations.
Is there a relationship between restrictions on breastfeeding, accessibility for the disability community, accommodations for dads with small kids, and hospitality for the LGBTQI+ community in public space? Yes, there is. And that’s one of the issues that we are going to explore together.
Please listen in on this critical discussion that is packed with information and resources, affirmation, and warmth and laughs as well.
This episode is rated clean for language, but we are providing a content advisory. For survivors, the LGBTQI+ community, and parents, be advised that there is some reference to male violence, assault, and suicide. Please listen with some discretion.
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Han Malyn:
Well, it's good to see you. It's been a minute.
Cevan:
Yeah, it has. It's really good to see you. I see a cat too.
Han Malyn:
Yes. This is Mad Eye. She is 15 years old and in charge of my life. And I'm not allowed to have any sort of call or meeting without her.
Cevan:
Absolutely not. <laugh> I have a cat who may show up soon too. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
They know who's in charge and it's not us.
Cevan:
That's right. As well it should be. <laugh>
Han Malyn:
<laughing> Yeah right. Like, look. They domesticated themselves and us. What did we really expect to happen?
That's what I always find funny, is that humans didn't domesticate cats. They just decided to live with us because It was easier. <laugh>
Cevan:
<laughing> Right. Right. Oh, amazing. Welcome, cat.
Han Malyn:
<laughing> Thank you. This is Han and Mad Eye talking about public spaces. She says, “I'm agoraphobic and therefore there should be no public spaces.”
Cevan:
Yeah.
Han Malyn:
I haven't done a podcast since we took ours off the air in 2019, so.
Cevan:
Oh! I wasn't aware that you were off the air.
Han Malyn:
Yeah, at some point it stops being fun, especially when all the advice columns are about, like, the world is on fire and half my family are bigots. What do I do?
Cevan:
Uhhhhhhh….. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
Uhhhhh…. <laughing> Don't talk to them anymore? Sorry about that?
Cevan:
Right. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
Yeah. It's like, can't you all have entertaining problems anymore? Why do they gotta be real world problems?
Cevan:
Right. Oh goodness. Well, I'm hoping we're going to give lots of advice to people... <laughing>
Han Malyn:
As long as people know that I'm not like actually qualified in any way other than my own lived experience. <laugh>
Cevan:
I'm weeping already. It's gonna to be hard to tell what emotional state Cevan is in today because... <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Look, that'll make me feel better because honestly, I've been on very high emotional alert these days, because, you know, existing in the world is really not fun right now.
Cevan:
Yes. It's really hard. I have to acknowledge like, I was very like, angry, sad, all the things while I'm trying to write these questions and I'm like, these are not the questions I would've wanted to write a year ago…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
These are not the questions I would've wanted to write six months ago…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Thank you for bearing with me, because I want to find the way into this conversation. <laugh>.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. And it's hard, it's really hard. The conversations have really shifted, like especially in recent months, you know, it's gone from like, “Have single stall restrooms so that anybody of any gender can use them,” to “Please don't sexually assault me for going into a restroom and call it legal.”
Cevan:
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Han Malyn:
So it's, yeah, it's a lot. I'm glad it's Pride month, because at least there's like positive things to like reinforce positive queer communities. But my spouse, when we moved to DC we moved because he got a job at Amtrak and we get free train tickets, which is great. I go back to New York all the time, but it's our 10 year wedding anniversary this year and we had planned to do a cross country train trip because we thought that'd be fun.
I can't go through the middle of the country safely anymore. There is no path through middle America. There's just, there's just not a way through.
Cevan:
Yep.
Han Malyn:
Like, if you've seen that map that's like the dark red and red and orange and whatever of like where there's anti-trans laws…
Cevan:
Yeah.
Han Malyn:
The entire middle swath of the country. So, yeah. Good times.
Cevan:
Yeah.
Han Malyn:
Anyway, I'm glad you're doing this. I feel like this is an important thing to talk about because, you know, there are many ways that accessibility and safe spaces present, and it really does vary based on your context, what you can even like, hope for.
And I think that it's extra important for places, people in places that are progressive to like double down on making sure that they're accessible and safe for people when there's so many places that we're not, so.
Cevan:
Right. That's right. You have to stop the spread of the antagonistic viewpoint.
It's interesting, ten, you say ten years ago- and congratulations on your anniversary… <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Thanks. <laugh>
Cevan:
Just about ten years ago, I was in the middle of the country having just had a baby there. And I was hiding in my car in parking lots trying to breastfeed this infant as we were trying to drive back across <laugh> the country.
And I remember being in states where there were, like, very current instances of women being arrested…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
In parking lots, in their cars, at the back of the mall parking lot where no one else is.
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
You know, with like blankets in the windows, because it was…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Exposing themselves indecently. I'm like, this is feeding an infant!
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
So. <laugh> It was very upsetting.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. I had a conversation with a friend who like, you know, was like, oh, this isn't any way the same. And I was like, no, it is. But who was talking about being pregnant, and needing to make a cross country trip and having to trace a route through states where if something went wrong she wouldn't die because they wouldn't do lifesaving procedures because of anti-abortion laws. And she was like, you know, I can't go through certain parts of the country because if an emergency happens while I'm there, they'll just let me die.
Cevan:
Right.
Han Malyn:
And I was like, yep, that's uh, that's where we're at.
Cevan:
That's where we're at.
Han Malyn:
And it really sucks. It really sucks. It's terrifying.
Cevan:
I appreciate you sharing that because it, I don't want to equivocate everyone's loss… <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Because everyone is experiencing a very particular kind of loss at this moment, but at the same time…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Like, if there's anything that I want to convey, that Annie and I want to convey, it's that our safety is all interconnected. Like, you either have a principle of upholding safety and dignity for people, or you don't. And…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
…I think what we're seeing is the erosion of that, and how it will continue to diminish people's safety and dignity, and it will not have discretion.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. It's the whole thing that, you know, ages and ages ago, the like, “First they came for…”
Cevan:
Yes!
Han Malyn:
Thing where it's like, it's just demographic by demographic.
And I'm like, you know, y'all, you're keeping an eye on trans people and being like, “Oh, well that's…” and I'm like, it's trans people and women now! It's just gonna be bit by bit, like your early stages of The Handmaid's Tale, my dudes, like… <laugh>
Cevan:
That's right.
Han Malyn:
And I don't know, I mean, I, especially coming from like a Jewish background, I'm like, we've seen this happen before.
Cevan:
That's right.
Han Malyn:
I'm trying to get like the really emotional parts out beforehand, but outlawing gender affirmative care for children is murder because trans kids who can't get care kill themselves and they are doing this intentionally. They don't not know that statistic. They want us all to die. And it's eugenics, and it's gone in cycles forever. And right now, it's just so, it's so blatant, and nobody seems to be able to stop it.
But like, there are the sanctuary states and have really strong protections, but for every state that's like that, there are states that are trying to extradite people to punish them for doing things that they don't like in other states. It's crazy times.
Cevan:
Right.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. I feel very lucky that I'm able to live in a state that has strong protections, and that most of the people that I care about and want to spend significant time around are also in states like that so I can feel safe going to visit them.
But, like, one of my grandmas is in Florida and I'm like, sorry, it is what it is. I'm not safe flying into an airport in Florida. I am not willing to go through airport security someplace that would have no problem sexually assaulting me and calling it legal. So yeah. <laughing> Good times.
Cevan:
Yeah.
I feel like we've already had such a lot to talk about. <laughing> I need to, um, I need to introduce you. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
Yes. Okay.
Cevan:
Thank you for joining us this morning. You have so many areas of interest and expertise. Can you talk a little bit about your professional background and other roles where you put your energy?
Han Malyn:
Yeah. So I sort of ended up in a professional do-gooder role, not really intentionally. I came out of undergrad with business and economics and art degrees, not really knowing what I wanted to do. And I ended up with a job at a synagogue, and it was a very progressive synagogue. They shared a building with a very progressive- I don't remember what sector of Christianity- but with a very progressive Christian church. It was very Gilmore Girls, where it was like you close the doors on the thing where they keep the Torah and then it was a cross, and so they could switch it for services.
And so that was sort of my first dipping my toe professionally into the nonprofit world. And they did a lot of social justice stuff that was a really positive environment. But I had fallen in love with New York years before that. And so I decided to go to grad school in New York, and I went into nonprofit arts administration, because the arts had really been, when I was growing up as, you know, kind of a weird kid in the suburbs, where I found my people, all the weird kids gravitate to the arts.
And I wanted other people to have access to that because I came from, you know, middle to upper middle class white suburbia. And I was very aware of the fact that people in other areas did not have access to the things that I did. Their schools didn't have budgets for the things that mine did. They didn't have, you know, free tickets to museums and stuff like I did through my parents' work. Like, it just wasn't the same thing. And so I went into that and I ended up interning at a few different museums and nonprofits.
And the one that stuck the longest was a tiny community design and arts nonprofit called Hester Street Collaborative in New York, in Chinatown, which has, when I was there, was like three employees and an intern. And I didn't even have a desk. I had a laptop on my lap.
And I looked at them recently and they've got like 20 full-time staff, and their budget is like 20 times what it was when I was there. And I'm like, so proud of them, because they do really cool work. But it was this mix of, they worked with the schools and they did like community design projects with the kids that went there. And then they also did like community surveys and like talked to people, what do you want your green space used for? And whatever. And that was all really neat.
From there I went into Cue Art Foundation, which is where you met me, which was a small nonprofit art gallery that also did arts education, et cetera. But while I was there was when the first round of the Black Lives Matter protests happened, which was I believe 2014.
And I sort of realized my level of privilege coming from a white presenting background. I'll throw behind that, I'm Jewish, it falls into this weird category of like, whether people count it as white or not, depends on whether they hate you or not. So…
Cevan:
Uh-huh.
Han Malyn:
But I look white, and so I have white privilege. So there's that. But I recognized that like, you know, like I was coming from a perspective of, I wanted to like, bring the arts and stuff to schools, and there were kids getting shot on their way to school because of what they looked like.
So I decided I wanted to look for jobs that could address that sort of thing more directly. And so I ended up going into human rights and I went and worked at Amnesty International for six years, who, for anyone who doesn't know them, look them up. Amazing organization, covers full spectrum human rights defense.
And from there I recently came to Oxfam International, which is another international nonprofit doing humanitarian and anti-poverty work. So that's been my arc in terms of profession. And then outside of that, I have on and off been on the board of a small LGBTQ community nonprofit in my area called the MoCo Pride Center, who do much more like local organizing and advocacy and events for the queer community in Montgomery County, Maryland, which is the DC metro area.
So I've sort of been at all sizes, and all, like a bunch of different areas of, <laugh> I always joke, I’m like, “SJW work.”
Cevan:
Mm-hmm. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
People started using that term as a derogatory, and I was like, no, I'll double down on it. I'm a social justice warrior for sure! Like…
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
What I care about is making people's lives better and safer, and making sure that they have access to things that I did, or didn't, regardless. And yeah. So that's, that’s where I'm at.
Yeah, and I did a podcast for a couple years called Han and Matt Know It All with my spouse. That was a meta advice column podcast where we read advice columns, picked questions we thought were interesting, and that could be dug into more on the subject matter and talked about them. So we brought a lot of sort of progressive queer intersectional lens to things that we thought maybe there were aspects that were missing from, and just discussed bonkers stuff. So that was on the air for about two years. And yeah, this just sort of, what I like to do is help people and tell them how to live their lives, which is nosy and also fun. <laugh>
Cevan:
<laughing> I love that you're nosy.
Han Malyn:
I can't help it. People are so interesting, I just like…
Cevan:
<laughing> And they need your help!
Han Malyn:
Exactly. I'm like, oh, I know how to fix that one, hold on.
Cevan:
<laughing> So, in this first part of our conversation, we are planning to speak about women and gender minorities and queer people. And for the purposes of our discussion, am I using the right terms and how should we define these groups of people? Are there frameworks or concepts we should use? And do these groups share any overlapping needs?
Han Malyn:
Yeah. So this is such a complicated question, because how people define things tends to be really personal. In my mind, I consider women to be anybody who identifies as a woman, whether they are cisgendered and were assigned female at birth, or whether they are trans women, or whether they are non-binary but also identify as women, which some people sort of take on multiple labels. It's all very personal decisions.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Mayln:
For me, when I think of gender minorities, I think of people that either don't fall on the binary or are not cisgender. I think that both of those can count. I think some people that are trans-binary probably don't consider themselves gender minorities. But again, it's a personal thing. You know, I'm non-binary and I consider myself transgender, but some non-binary people don't. And queer, I think kind of is the same thing, where I use it as an all-encompassing term for myself and for my community. I also like to call us the alphabet mafia, because there's so many letters now.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Han Malyn:
But… But I think that, you know, LGBTQIA+ encompasses a whole range of, you know, gender orientation, sexuality, or lack thereof. But not everybody who could be assigned one of those letters necessarily identifies as part of that community or likes that term.
So it's very nuanced, and I don't know that there is a correct approach. I think that for every person who tries to set out definitions or somebody else that will tell them, no, you're wrong, or one of the ways you're using this is problematic and this is why.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Han Malyn:
So I try to be open to the perspectives of people and trust their lived experiences and what they're comfortable with and respect that, but also be true to my, you know, sense of myself. And I basically approach it, with sort of a, “Do no harm or do as little harm as possible” approach.
Cevan:
That’s right.
[Audio recording of “Tuning Forks on Resonators” demonstration of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects (from the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History) begins to play in background]
Cevan:
Be sure to check out our website, kinderpublic.com, for more information about our guest and the topic, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, which can be found on the podcast page. A captioned episode is available on our Youtube channel, where we are @kinderpublic.
If you have enjoyed an episode of Towards a Kinder Public, we would love your help in sharing the episode with others. Please also consider leaving us a rating and a review, it helps us make our topics more visible, and we really appreciate your support.
I’m Cevan Castle, my guest has been Han Malyn. Our conversation will continue in the next episode. Please take extra care. We’ll see you next week.
[“Tuning Forks on Resonators” fades out]
Mentioned in this episode:
Sounds/Visuals in this episode:
“Tuning Forks on Resonators“ demonstration video of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects, care of the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History